turbocivic4
New Member
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Loc: Hawaii, Maui
Reg: 02-24-03
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 06-10-03 02:48 AM - Post#20998
I plan to use the Mas technique as in the rotory magazine, ill be using Phase 2 setup. So tell , im using a 5 point curves on my 9cap. -7, +2, +9 pitch and 0, 50, 100 throttle curve, in the graph in the mag the -4 and +4 at 60% throttle and 40% throttle doesnt fall into the 3 1/4 point. So what numbers do i add for my 2nd and 4th points??
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Mike Mas
Full Time Senior Member
Posts: 4127
Loc: Roanoke VA USA
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06-10-03 04:12 AM - Post#21006
In response to turbocivic4
You really need only two points with the Mas Tech set-up (low & high)
You should first obtain the pitch mechanically with the linkage - this assures that you are totally linear with regard to the pitch curve.
The Thottle curve is linear as well. With that phase 2 set-up, you'll end up with a little over 50% barrel opening with a linear throttle curve as well since the machine is not going to lift off with only 2 degrees of pitch. It will lift off above the half stick position.
While it will feel a little strange at first you'll quickly get used to it. The best part is the machine is going to happy 
Mike Mas
"we know around here"
ROTORY ~ THE MOST TRUSTED NAME IN R/C HELICOPTERS
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turbocivic4
New Member
Posts: 12
Loc: Hawaii, Maui
Reg: 02-24-03
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06-10-03 04:56 AM - Post#21008
In response to Mike Mas
Ok, but still I need to enter some number in my 5 point curve on my radio what do i enter for point 2 and 4? Also I just redid my collective to be 0 at midstick and +9, -9 and full stick and low stick. My atv is 100 85 , is this ok??If now it will bind, I got the servo horn 90 degrees to the linkage rod and not to the servo body. Thanks
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Mike Mas
Full Time Senior Member
Posts: 4127
Loc: Roanoke VA USA
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06-10-03 05:06 AM - Post#21009
In response to turbocivic4
Just make it linear - each radio is a little different - if you have five points, then they should be 0/25/50/75/100.
Keep this in mind you always "First" want to set the machine up mechanically. so . . you should only be using 100% atv's if the machine is set up right - right?
On most all heli's, the servo arm must be set in it's center of travel in order to be linear.
Let me know!
Mike Mas
"we know around here"
ROTORY ~ THE MOST TRUSTED NAME IN R/C HELICOPTERS
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turbocivic4
New Member
Posts: 12
Loc: Hawaii, Maui
Reg: 02-24-03
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06-10-03 05:36 AM - Post#21013
In response to Mike Mas
Ok I set it up with a different horn, I got it 90 degrees to the servo body which is center of the servo throw and not 90 degrees to the linkage(raptortechnique). I got atv 100 100 and pitch of +9, -9.5 with no binding. So I guess this is close enough, linear movement??
Thanks for helping me, just to think your the author of the magazine that I read all day at work 
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Mike Mas
Full Time Senior Member
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Loc: Roanoke VA USA
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06-13-03 01:41 AM - Post#21174
In response to turbocivic4
Your welcome - glad we can help. If you have any questions ask away!
Regards,
Mike Mas
"we know around here"
ROTORY ~ THE MOST TRUSTED NAME IN R/C HELICOPTERS
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turbocivic4
New Member
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Loc: Hawaii, Maui
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06-17-03 04:17 AM - Post#21464
In response to Mike Mas
Ok just to be sure this is what my raptor is setup i havnt tested it cause its much too windy 
I got normal throttle curve 0 25 50 75 100 and pitch at 0 25 54.5 75 90 and idle up 100 75 60 75 100 and pitch 0 25 54.5 75 90. I got a range of -9 to +10 pitch so I cut the atv on the - side to get -7 degrees and I lowered the radio pitch to 90 to get +9 pitch. This is for the phase 2 setup, does this sound correct, i also turned my servo around on the pitch to get a better 90 degree's but had to reverse the servo direction.
Phase 2 is 0 50 100 and -7 2 9
Can i try 3d with this setup ive never done it yet but do it in g2 easily!!
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Mike Mas
Full Time Senior Member
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Loc: Roanoke VA USA
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06-17-03 11:51 AM - Post#21486
In response to turbocivic4
The pitch sep-up looks fine!
Keep in mind that a Sim helicopter is going to fly somewhat different than your Raptor. Stuff that is easy on the Sim won't be quite as easy in the real world. Generally speaking for new pilots you'll be able to accomplish about 1/2 of what you do on the sim with a real machine.
Not sure which model you use, but if your flying a Raptor, the Sun Dog 60 in RealFlight flys about the same.
Mike Mas
"we know around here"
ROTORY ~ THE MOST TRUSTED NAME IN R/C HELICOPTERS
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FyrFtrEmt
Member
Posts: 53
Loc: Tennessee
Reg: 12-17-02
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06-17-03 10:45 PM - Post#21531
In response to Mike Mas
I would be curious to know if anyone out there has gone to the trouble to come up with an add-on (other than the manufacturer) that simulates a stock Raptor...surely someone has as popular as the raptor is!
Is there a place to download them at low-cost (or even better....free)?
Terry
Futaba 9Z w/9252's
Raptor 50 V2 / Ergo 60 / TRex SE
O.S. Hyper
GY401 w/9254 & GY401 w/9560
GEM 2000
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Matthew
Senior Member
Posts: 111
Loc: Christiansburg,VA
Reg: 01-07-03
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06-18-03 02:43 AM - Post#21539
In response to FyrFtrEmt
Quote:
I would be curious to know if anyone out there has gone to the trouble to come up with an add-on (other than the manufacturer) that simulates a stock Raptor...surely someone has as popular as the raptor is!
Is there a place to download them at low-cost (or even better....free)?
Yep right on real flight's web site there are a bunch to sart with here is the link: Real Flight swap page
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Mike Mas
Full Time Senior Member
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Loc: Roanoke VA USA
Reg: 02-20-00
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06-18-03 02:44 AM - Post#21540
In response to FyrFtrEmt
FyrFtrEmt
Hello - How is the stock add-on Raptor from RealFlight - just curious!
Mike Mas
"we know around here"
ROTORY ~ THE MOST TRUSTED NAME IN R/C HELICOPTERS
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turbocivic4
New Member
Posts: 12
Loc: Hawaii, Maui
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06-18-03 03:39 AM - Post#21548
In response to Mike Mas
I fly the add on raptor 30 and it flies just like my real one flies in my opinion
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Christopher J
Full Time Senior Member
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Loc: Kansas City, MO
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06-18-03 10:22 PM - Post#21608
In response to turbocivic4
I've also flown the Raptor. I modify the program a little but I also use my own Tx and not the one provided with the program. This way I can fine tune the heli so it feels like my real one.
| Christopher J
East Coast Vario Field Rep
Size it up and then scale it down |
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Tree_Top_Chop
Senior Member
Posts: 438
Loc: California
Reg: 08-14-02
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06-19-03 03:32 PM - Post#21650
In response to Christopher J
I wanted to add something in regards to the Mas Technique that's helped me. Alot of guys just use standard servo's on their plastic 30's. You really need a very accurate pitch servo if you're going to do the Mas Tech. The reason is the servo's throw will generate a greater change in pitch. If it's not real accurate you'll have a jumpy helicopter. It's even worse if you limit the servo's throw to tame the beast while you're trying to get used to it (i.e., set ATV's to 80%). If you want the best success - then a very accurate pitch servo is necessary. In forward flight it's no big deal but you'll have a heck of a time in hover and landing with a sloppy servo. If it's a plastic fantastic, you also have the slop/rocking in the pitch controls compounding the problem.
In this case (less than ideal servo/controls) you may get better results by setting up full throw mechanicals and then matching them to a 150% ATV vs. 100%. This way the servo can be sloppy a .5mm or so and not effect the machine so much. Did that make sense? Someone else might be better able to describe what I'm talking about.
Example:
At 100% ATV you move the stick 1mm and the servo moves 1mm - the pitch changes 1 degree +/- (because of inaccurate servo) 1 degree. 100% error potential.
At 150% ATV you move the stick 1mm and the servo moves 1.5mm - the pitch still only changes 1 degree BUT +/- .75 degree instead. 50% error potential.
The key is having the mechanical throw of say +9,0,-9 but matching it to 150% throw vs. 100% with the servo arm.
Man, I suck at explaining this. It's kind of a way to cheat in some accuracy smooth things out until you can buy a nice servo. 3 pole non BB servo's won't work very well on the pitch - look for 5 pole BB servo minimum, ideally a coreless accurate servo (what I use). You only need the one so it's not so bad. And you'll be able to move it to a .60. You can pick them up used for $40-60, new around $80. Definately get the slop out of the pitch, too.
There's not as much pressure on a throttle arm so it's usually OK. But the pitch can get kinda flaky. I hope that made sense - just a little tip to get the most out of what you have. I would imagine this would work real well smoothing out a CCPM setup. The only real problem I see is the throws start losing their "linearness" toward the end (sort of a ramping effect).
Course, it could all just be in my head.
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turbocivic4
New Member
Posts: 12
Loc: Hawaii, Maui
Reg: 02-24-03
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07-15-03 08:19 AM - Post#23017
In response to turbocivic4
With the throttle curve with mas technique on my rap 30 is the rpms safe , when i listen to it it seems a bit fast
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Tree_Top_Chop
Senior Member
Posts: 438
Loc: California
Reg: 08-14-02
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07-15-03 04:24 PM - Post#23026
In response to turbocivic4
The Mas technique puts the throttle at 60% at lift-off. You're probably used to 50% - so the head speed will be higher if you haven't made any other changes to the amount of pitch you're using. It's a delicate thing to balance. The Mas technique get's you started, you still have to determine your preferred head speed and dial in more/less pitch + tweak the throttle. One of the keys, however, is to keep the throttle curve ahead of the pitch curve so the heli is less likely to dog out on heavy acrobatics (something I don't do, but others can help you there).
For example, I recently setup a Kyosho. My initial head speed was 2200 rpm at liftoff, not good. I'm doing tons of hover practice so I don't want a 3D type pitch setup. So I dialed my throttle down but I did add a little more pitch on each end.
If you don't know you're headspeed, you can modify a $10 bicycle speedometer and use that - or get a friend with a tach.
If it sounds too high, it probably is. You'll notice things like a jittery tail and a really over-sensitive heli in general. Either mechanically add more pitch, or take the throttle curve down. Something else to do is check your pitch at the different settings on your radio. At 3/4 stick you should have 1/2 you're total pitch range in. If your pitch is coming in non-linear you'll have problems.
On a 30 size you shouldn't have such an over-abundance of power that you're overspeeding the head at liftoff. You're either not feeding it enough pitch fast enough, or something is non-linear. It doesn't matter what you do, at 1800 headspeed it will lift off at X pitch irregardless of the type of setup. Those are the numbers you really are tweaking, at 1900 headspeed you need less pitch, at 1400 you'd need more. Make sense? You've done the switch-over, now you just need to customize it to you, your heli, and you're electronics.
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Mike Mas
Full Time Senior Member
Posts: 4127
Loc: Roanoke VA USA
Reg: 02-20-00
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07-15-03 05:07 PM - Post#23027
In response to Tree_Top_Chop
If you switch your machine over to the Mas Tech set-up in most cases it's going to turn faster than it did before. Anytime an engine turns faster, you'll need to give it more fuel.
Regardless of any set-up, you'll always want to start out 4+ turns and work the needle in slowely witha half a tank of fuel to get the hover rpm right. Remember with the Mas Tech set-up, your on the high speed jets at hover, so if it works on the ground, it will generally work upstairs.
Instead of changing the pitch or throttle curves use the high speed needle to set he correct rpm.
If the rpm bothers you at first then decrease the hovering throttle a bit until you feel comfortable.
Mike Mas
"we know around here"
ROTORY ~ THE MOST TRUSTED NAME IN R/C HELICOPTERS
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Tree_Top_Chop
Senior Member
Posts: 438
Loc: California
Reg: 08-14-02
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07-15-03 09:48 PM - Post#23037
In response to Mike Mas
Good point. Listen to Mike on that and ignore what I said for now. Tweak only after.
On my motor/setup 1 click = 75 RPM. Yours will no doubt be different. I end up changing my motor 4-6 clicks (300-450 RPM) as the day changes because of temperature, etc..
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turbocivic4
New Member
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Loc: Hawaii, Maui
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07-16-03 08:57 AM - Post#23065
In response to Tree_Top_Chop
[censored] , not more then a gallon later this evening my raptor went into the ground inverted. Same thing happened as last time, this time i flipped it inverted about 15 feet off the ground and once inverted gave it negative with full throttle and it didnt create lift to bring it back up. The idle up was definetly engaged as i was flyin with it for couple of seconds before flipping it. [censored] this is so discouraging as I already fly different since my last crash which was not too long ago. Now when I fly my heart beats fast rather then before I was very very relaxed.
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Mike Mas
Full Time Senior Member
Posts: 4127
Loc: Roanoke VA USA
Reg: 02-20-00
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07-16-03 11:37 AM - Post#23066
In response to turbocivic4
Tubrocivic
Ok here's what you do on your next attempt - forget 15 feet roll overs, take the machine up high around 150-200 feet or so, set the machine up as if your going to do a loop, except as the machine starts to go downwind on the top of the loop add full low throttle (idle-up engaged) and fly the machine downwind inverted for 5-10 seconds. While it's inverted try to take account on what's happening such as is the negative holding the machine during inverted, and what the tail is doing. If you set-up and gyro is working fine the machine should fly downwind and slightly climb in the process. In addition since the machine is going downwind if the tail is off even slightly you'll see it yaw to the right or left, make you adjustment with the trims then after you land "learn" the new trim setting by flipping your HH switch.
Continue doing this maneuver until your comfortable with inverted - if anything goofy happens, just hit up elevator and bail out to level flight. (split-S)
Mike Mas
"we know around here"
ROTORY ~ THE MOST TRUSTED NAME IN R/C HELICOPTERS
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